Sunday, December 10, 2006

Historical Zionist Interest in Lebanon

MFL Notes: Comrade Yossi starts his article, titled "Lebanon – What is behind the conflict? ", by an analysis on Lebanon. I have to admit that comrade Yossi did a good analysis of the situation, but it is reductionist. He didn't tacke the flows of both capitalist camps and their reactionary dimensions. Furthermore, he reduced the ruling government as simply "Imperialistic" while assumed that the clash currently is Christian versus Shiite. He didn't take into consideration several factors, such as Iran, the role of the Gulf nations, the Sunni and Durzi streets (and what are their roles). I can fully understand that his sources over there are not complete, but the second half of the article is amazing. I copy pasted it here to reflect Zionist interest in Lebanon. To say the truth, what interested me most are the letters of Ben-Gurion (co-founder of Israel, and first Prime Minister) and Sharrett (a later Israeli Prime Minister).
__________________

Herzl, the father of the Zionist movement, stated in The Jewish State that the Zionists would assist the imperialists if the Great Powers would grant Palestine to his movement and guaranteed its existence. "We would there form a portion of the rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence". (Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State: An Attempt at a Modern Solution to the Jewish Question, p. 30).

The proposed borders of the Zionist State were officially submitted by the Zionist Organization to the Paris Peace Conference in 1922, where the victorious imperialists met to divide the loot. This map included, in addition to the whole of the Mandate of Palestine, southern Lebanon up to the Litani River, the Golan Heights, and an area to the East of the Jordan River which runs from the North to the South parallel to the Hijaz railroad.

Two important sources on the Zionist plans for Lebanon are the diary of Moshe Sharett, who was the Prime Minster of Israel in 1954-1955 and who was considered a "soft Zionist", and Livia Rokach's Israel's Sacred Terrorism: A study based on Moshe Sharett's Personal Diary, and other documents. In the latter we find some very interesting information, and it is worth quoting from Sharett's diary at length:

"Then he [Ben Gurion] passed on to another issue. This is the time, he said, to push Lebanon, that is, the Maronites in that country, to proclaim a Christian State. I said that this was nonsense. The Maronites are divided. The partisans of Christian separatism are weak and will dare do nothing. A Christian Lebanon would mean their giving up Tyre, Tripoli, and the Beka'a. There is no force that could bring Lebanon back to its pre-World War I dimensions, and all the more so because in that case it would lose its economic raison-d'etre. Ben Gurion reacted furiously. He began to enumerate the historical justification for a restricted Christian Lebanon. If such a development were to take place, the Christian Powers would not dare oppose it. I claimed that there was no factor ready to create such a situation, and that if we were to push and encourage it on our own we would get ourselves into an adventure that will place shame on us. Here came a wave of insults regarding my lack of daring and my narrow-mindedness. We ought to send envoys and spend money. I said there was no money. The answer was that there is no such thing. The money must be found, if not in the Treasury then at the Jewish Agency! For such a project it is worthwhile throwing away one hundred thousand, half a million, a million dollars. When this happens a decisive change will take place in the Middle East, a new era will start. I got tired of struggling against a whirlwind. (27 February 1954,)"

The next day David Ben Gurion sent Sharett the following letter:

"To Moshe Sharett the Prime Minister,
Sdeh Boker, February 27, 1954
"Upon my withdrawal from the government I decided in my heart to desist from intervening and expressing my opinion on current political affairs so as not to make things difficult for the government in any way. And if you hadn't called on me, the three of you, yourself, Lavon and Dayan, I would not have, of my own accord, expressed an opinion on what is being done or what ought to be done. But as you called me, I deem it my duty to comply with your wishes, and especially with your own wish as Prime Minister. Therefore, I permit myself to go back to one issue which you did not approve of and discuss it again, and this is the issue of Lebanon.


"It is clear that Lebanon is the weakest link in the Arab League. The other minorities in the Arab States are all Muslim, except for the Copts. But Egypt is the most compact and solid of the Arab States and the majority there consists of one solid block, of one race, religion and language, and the Christian minority does not seriously affect their political and national unity. Not so the Christians in Lebanon. They are a majority in the historical Lebanon and this majority has a tradition and a culture different from those of the other components of the League. Also within the wider borders (this was the worst mistake made by France when it extended the borders of Lebanon), the Muslims are not free to do as they wish, even if they are a majority there (and I don't know if they are, indeed, a majority) for fear of the Christians. The creation of a Christian State is therefore a natural act; it has historical roots and it will find support in wide circles in the Christian world, both Catholic and Protestant... D.B.G. (27 February 1954)"

Sharett responded a few weeks later with the following:

"Mr. David Ben Gurion, March 18, 1954, Sdeh Boker
"As far as I know, in Lebanon today exists no movement aiming at transforming the country into a Christian State governed by the Maronite community...
"This is not surprising. The transformation of Lebanon into a Christian State as a result of an outside initiative is unfeasible today... I don't exclude the possibility of accomplishing this goal in the wake of a wave of shocks that will sweep the Middle East... will destroy the present constellations and will form others. But in the present Lebanon, with its present territorial and demographic dimensions and its international relations, no serious initiative of the kind is imaginable.


"The Christians do not constitute the majority in Lebanon. Nor are they a unified block, politically speaking or community-wise. The Orthodox minority in Lebanon tends to identify with their brethren in Syria. They will not be ready to go to war for a Christian Lebanon, which is for a Lebanon smaller than it is today, and detached from the Arab League. On the contrary, they would probably not be opposed to a Lebanon united to Syria, as this would contribute to strengthening their own community and the Orthodox community throughout the region... In fact, there are more Orthodox Christians in Syria than in Lebanon, and the Orthodox in Syria and Lebanon together are more numerous than the Maronites...

"... There are also decisive economic arguments against it. We are not discussing the issue in 1920/21... but 30 years later. Mount Lebanon has meanwhile integrated into one organic unit with the coastal plane of Tyre and Sidon, the Valley of Baalbeck and the city of Tripoli. They are commercially and economically interdependent and inseparable. Mount Lebanon was not a self-sufficient unit even before World War 1... The annexation of the three regions plus the city of Beirut to the Lebanese State has rendered possible the creation of a balanced economy. A return to the past would not just mean a surgical operation but also a disintegration leading to the end of Lebanon...

"When all this has been said, [I should add that] I would not have objected, and on the contrary I would have certainly been favorable to the idea, of actively aiding any manifestation of agitation in the Maronite community tending to strengthen its isolationist tendencies, even if there were no real chances of achieving the goals; I would have considered positive the very existence of such an agitation and the destabilization it could bring about, the trouble it would have caused the League, the diversion of attention from the Arab-Israeli complications that it would have caused, and the very kindling of a fire made up of impulses toward Christian independence. But what can I do when such an agitation is nonexistent? ... In the present condition, I am afraid that any attempt on our part would be considered as lightheartedness and superficiality or worse-as an adventurous speculation upon the well being and existence of others and a readiness to sacrifice their basic good for the benefit of a temporary tactical advantage for Israel.

"Moreover, if this plan is not kept a secret but becomes known a danger which cannot be underestimated in the Middle Eastern circumstances-the damage which we shall suffer... would not be compensated even by an eventual success of the operation itself...
"M. S. (18 March 1954)"

At that time Ben Gurion did not convince Sharett. The conditions were not ripe for such an attempt. But the idea never went away and remained in the minds of the leading Zionists as an option. The time to put into practice came in 1978 during the civil war when the "Litani Operation" was launched.

Israel was created at a terrible price. The Palestinians were expelled from their homeland, pushed into refugee camps all around the region. Israel thus came into being in an almost permanent state of war against its Arab neighbours. Israel was envisaged as an outpost of western imperialism, a "safe ally" that could police this oil-rich region. For decades it played that role quite successfully. Part of that task involved trying to get at least one "friendly" regime to its north in Lebanon. But this was easier said than done. Because of its delicate ethnic make up, Lebanon dominated by the Christian elite could never be a stable country. Class conflict would emerge and re-emerge in the form of ethnic conflict due to the lack of a clear working class, socialist leadership, that could cut across the ethnic divide.

Today Israel continues to meddle in the internal affairs of Lebanon. This summer's bombing of the country was clearly aimed at provoking a civil war, at re-igniting the ethnic conflict within the country. After the expulsion of Syria from the country - in actual fact a stabilising element - Hezbollah emerged as even more powerful. As it is based on the poorer sections of Lebanese society, the leaders of Hezbollah could only justify their existence by presenting themselves as a constant threat to Israel and by directing their energies against those within Lebanon seen as backing US imperialism and therefore also Israel. This summer Israel attempted to push the Christians into fighting Hezbollah, thus indirectly provoking also class war.

Unfortunately for the Zionist ruling class, Israel has emerged weakened from that war. It can no longer play the role of trustworthy policeman for the imperialists. In fact it is a destabilising element, but one that has less cards to play than in the past. Israel is clearly against involving Iran and Syria in finding a solution to the mess created by US and British imperialism in Iraq. Involving Syria in Iraq would imply strengthening its position also in Lebanon, where it has traditionally had influence over Hezbollah. This would undo the work of the past years, aimed at removing Syrian influence from Lebanon.

Here we see contradictory interests emerging between the needs of the Zionist ruling class in Israel and imperialism in general. This division also exist within the US ruling class itself. The clique around Bush pushed for the Iraqi invasion, but it is becoming more and more obvious as each day passes that this has been an absolute disaster for US imperialism.

Thus, we see how the conflicts internationally have a direct effect on the internal politics of a small country like Lebanon. And so long as capitalism continues to exist there will be powerful economic interests to defend in this region. Ultimately those who pay most severely in all this are the ordinary working people of Lebanon, of all ethnic groups, the Palestinian people who continue to languish in terrible social and economic conditions, and the Arab masses as a whole.

The other side of the coin, of course, is the situation facing ordinary working class people in Israel. They too suffer. While all their rights are gradually being whittled away, they are asked to continue fighting wars that cannot be won, and to live in what is becoming more and more one big prison house surrounded by hostile forces. This is not the safe haven for Jews that many dreamed of.
To all this there is no solution so long as Israel is governed by the reactionary Zionist bourgeoisie and so long as the Arab countries are governed by equally reactionary local elites, whose only interests are to line their own pockets at the expense of their own peoples.

The problems of a small country like Lebanon therefore can only be solved in the long run in the arena of the international class struggle, a struggle that can only end with the overthrow of all these rotten regimes.

30 comments:

Anonymous said...
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dfasf said...

I don't understand what all those justification to hezbolla act...they start the war end of the phr. no oil, no nothing...

israel did went weaker from this war, but iran and syria went stronger.
is this what you want????
I know that its easy to hate israel more than iran or syria, but I think that they are more threatening on lebanon than israel...
what you said on the israeli is exactly the same on the Lebaneses, you can stop fight with israel also its hurt in the miserable Lebaneses also..
I don't understand why do you keep supporting hezbolla (I don't talk on you, I talk to the majority of lebanon that support hezbolla) what will happen if you keep fighting against israel, you can't win them...you just keep suffer because of this hate...O.K. you killed some soldiers, so? is it make it easy on you?

p.s

I think its offensive to call peopele zionist, they are zionist but I am sure they prefer you to call them israelis...like you don't like that someone call you arab and not Lebanese even that you are arab.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

I don't mind to be called an Arab, Arab is not a political ideology like racist Zionism.

Israel is the most who killed in Lebanon's history, not Syria and Iran.

Israel could have resolved to diplomacy rather violence but again Israel is racist in nature because it is ZIONIST! It is like Canada and USA, if Hezbollah kidnapped two marines on the boarders in canada, would the states bomb the hell out of Canada? No...

MFL

dfasf said...

If most of the Canadians support hezbolla, if hezbolla is in the govermant of canada, if canada govermant don't do nothing about this like get rid of hezbolla...so yes they will do that...you talk here on country that start war because nothing in iraq, I don't want to think what U.S.A would do to lebanon if hezbolla will start war on them...believe me it will not be 1000 cevilians killed, it will be much more, because nobody can say them nothing...again look at iraq and Afghanistan (and lets not think about what russia whould do...)

P.S

hezbolla not only kidnapped two soldiers, it shooted on israeli cities, it kidnapped 3 soldiers before, and attack israel 3 time (in average) per year during this time that israel is not longer on lebanon territory (I talk on U.N decision 1559).

zionist is not a racist idology for my opinion.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

jeeez

You really like to oversimplify things.

Didn't the united states give you the green light to bomb lebanon? and don't tell me no...

second, Hezbollah retaliated

third, your stupid government didn't declare war on the Lebanese government, rather on Hezbollah but bombed the whole Lebanon except central beirut.

fourth, Israel has been kidnapping Lebanese civilians and violating our space on monthly basis

fifth, the kidnapping is part of the swaps that Israel held without any rights lebanese prisonrs

sixth, Zionism is racist if it aims to have 100% Jewish nation while kicking out the inhabitants of that area + believes it has the right to bomb whoever it wants

MFL

dfasf said...

I don't think this situation here in lebanon is so complicated like you think, I mean the israeli problem..the others problems are very complicated.

U.S.A give us the green light because its our allies, and yes we need their support, what is the problem here?

Hezbollah retaliated? so fuck them...why do you accept this??? or you want to retaliat also...

when israel kidnaped cevilians during the war in accident, its bring them back after one week.

the lebanese prisonrs went to israeli territory, some of them made crimes...I know Samir Kuntar who killed 2 israeli cevilians.I know that there is two others and they arrested when they act against I.D.F, this isn't kidnaping, what hezbolla did is kidnaping...

there is 20% muslims arabs in israel, they have rights like me...they even have more rights because they are consider to minority and they get remedial discrimination rights.
for what I know racist is someone who hate people because of their race, israel low accept all the races equal, mybe you don't know but more than 30-40% of my country are consider to arabs jews-they came from arabs countries, they eat arab food, hear arab music, and they look like the other arabs,of course not all of them, but a lot of them- like that the europians jews have western culture...I can say on myself that my mother came from iran, and I don't consider arabs to inferior...
of course there is racist people in israel, like there is racist people in germany or in lebanon, but the law isn't racist...only today I saw an arab show that present the jews like people who want only money, intriguer and want to controll the world...I was very angry, its remind me nazi germany caricature, I can say to you that if someting like this was put in the israeli television on arabs or any other race next day the court was closed the show- its happend in the past...
I saw this show in the Saudi T.V., but I am not saying now that Saudi is a racist regime like you do...
you criticize israel a lot on racist, and its fine..but you don't do the same to other countrtries that do the same and even worst..

MarxistFromLebanon said...

I want? I want defence whenever your racist government bombs the hell out of us. I can't blame Hezbollah because it was your government which was gamgling on a civil war to occur from that war. Don't you read Ha'aretz? Ze'ev himself said that your government was planning an attack.

Currently, Israel is the prime example for being "Jewish" and proceeding with such a plan. It is the only currently that expelled a whole people outside their homes...

Hezbollah are not like al-Qa'eda

They are a legitimate party, as for the Muslims? What is the relations of the Muslims in Palestine and Lebanon? It is like comparing the Christians of France to those of Spain or Portugal. Same thing in Lebanon... this is what bothers me about Zionist Supporters, lack of knowledge. Still, I welcome your comments so we can debate.

Remember, your logic of Israeli non-Jews are to be B citizens (issued by Ben - Gurion himself.

MFL

dfasf said...

What you do is lame, I see that you do that all the time..you quote someone and you decide on this quote opinion, so ben gurion said...so? in hebrew there is saying: "he said and still stayed alive..." you can not judge idiology on one person, or on one reporter opinion...
I hear Rafa Sultan, she said that islam is a racist religon and violence but I know that she isn't god, she said and still stayed alive...

we surf to diffrent thigns in this conversation, I am not here to convince you that zionist is people like you, you can believe what you want, I understand that you are Marxist so it obvious that you are not agree with zionist, I understand that you hate israel also, because its "crimes" , I hate lebanon on its crimes too... that is the problem we need to see country not as "bad country" or "good country", "racist" or "terrorist"...
that what jorge bush do, and its wrong...every country in the world has interests, israel too...
you need to think on it in rational view...
mybe israel it is a racsit country, but when you say it is, you don't stop israel, you don't win it.
you need to think on your own interests, I think that war every 5 years its not good to lebanon (even if israel is murders), I think that let iran, which against the freedom of speech, to controll your country because they have strategic interests in your country isn't good for you.
I don't understand why you the Lebaneses don't understand it, if you not support iran it doen't mean that you support israel or U.S...
if israel wrong its doen't mean that the others are rights...

Hezbolla can't defeat israel, it can kill some soldiers that it...it can't bring you your lands, its can not do anything only to sting I.D.F...why do you support them give me one rational reason wich not saying that israel is the evil in the world, one rational reason to your own country interests.

I don't want to "win" in this argument, I realy want to hear one and for all why do you support them...revenge? I realy start to think that this some old hate that existing in your heart to israel (again I don't talk on you personal).

MarxistFromLebanon said...

The US gave green light? Then why do we have the UN? Or it is nothing but a waste of time?

Now wait a minute, did operations inside Israel? We are not allowed to do so? remember, Israel invaded Lebanon from 1978 - 2000, or you expect that the IDF would recieve flowers instead?

As for the Muslims topic? Why refer to Lebanon and Palestine's muslims as the same? it is as if saying the Christians in France and Portugal are the same. (Now isn't that niavely illogical?)

Racist Israel I say because all non-Jews live as Class B. Actually Ben-Gurion himself issued the command with passports labeled B for non-Jews. Racist because Israel had to kick a whole nation out in order to build its own

Problem with Zionism, it made Jews as a race rather as a Sect.

400 prisoners staying for years is an accident? I never knew that?

I never did say Jews don't suffer from Zionism, I have always been active in Lebanon to distinguish between Jews and Zionists (take a look at the pic up, there are two Jews in the pic next to Lenin: Kamenev and Trotsky.

In any case, I welcome your comments and hope to have further debates.

Marxist From Lebanon

dfasf said...

p.s.

"They are a legitimate party, as for the Muslims? What is the relations of the Muslims in Palestine and Lebanon? It is like comparing the Christians of France to those of Spain or Portugal. Same thing in Lebanon... this is what bothers me about Zionist Supporters, lack of knowledge. Still, I welcome your comments so we can debate."

can you explain me what are you talkin about in this paragraph? I realy don't understand how it connected to what I had said before...

dfasf said...

I think you have problem in your site because your posts prefer to my last last posts...

I write about the zionist, and you answer me with something else...

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Yes, I had a connection problem

In reference, you mentioned earlier Muslims in Palestine and Lebanon as the same, I was explaining you can't say Muslims are the same everywhere... they differ per country and sect.

Second, Hezbollah did kick out Israel back in 2000, so I consider that as a victory.

Third, what terrorism compared to the crimes done from 1939 (Post-foundation of the Haganag) to till Present? It is totally illogical...when Israel bombs refugee trucks carrying white flags or returning to their villages in plain clear crystal line, that is not terrorist?

We hate the israeli government for kicking out the Palestinians from their homes and triggering all that chain reactions of events. We hate Israel for all the invasions that occurred in the Past (while Israel claimed it was defending itself). We also hate the Zionist government for doing fraud peace treaties and send the bulldozers from the other side. We hate the Zionist government for not being held accountable for all its attrocities and actually given green light to have Nuclear arms as well as using banned weaponry (phosphoric and uranium residue) without being held accountable... the list goes on :)

Best Regards

MFL

Darko said...

1-Great Article, i'm guna make copies of it
2-dfasf: you asked why like hezbullah, here's a couple reasons:
a-It was Hezbullah resistance that forced israel, to returne most of the land it had occupied after 82, and your army generals admited the lost as your IDF was pulling out of the south in 2000(i don't get it, why called defence forces, when they're always on the attack)
b-it was hezbullah operations, that enabled the party to capture soldiers, witch led to the returne of 400 prisoners from your jails
c-Being an SSNP member, i might oppose the ideolgy of hezbullah, and i believe that, just like israel has stolen lands that belong to us, so did iran, but the diffrence, is that with iran negotiations can be done, cause the problem is over borders issues, but with israel, the only real solutions, is either the return of israel to the 1967 border, and if that doesn't happen, the only choice left is the total eradication of israel, cause israel doesn't have the right to exist at all, and that when me and and hezbullah, can agree. think of it, the same way the churchel did, when he sided with russia during ww2, the enemy of my enemy is my friend
3-The Oxford Dictionnary defination of Racism:
the belief that each race or ethnic group possesses specific characteristics, abilities, or qualities that distinguish it as inferior or superior to another such group.

and here's some nice quotes, from famous zionists:

By the turn of the 20th century, Ben-Gurion advocated exclusively Jewish labor (Avodah Ivrit) in Jewish businesses. He explained why a Jewish laborer should earn a higher salary because:

"[he was] more intelligent and diligent" than the Arab. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 12-13)

From the start, Ben-Gurion wanted to segregate Arab and Jewish societies in all sectors. For example, Jews in Palestine had their separate economical, social, health, educational, media, and political sectors that were opened to Jews only. The segregation of Palestine's society was nurtured by the Zionists to make it easier to partition the country when the "appropriate" time comes. In that regards, he stated in the 1920s:

"The assets of the Jewish National Home must be created exclusively through our own work, for only the product of the Hebrew labor can serve as the national estate." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 66)


In 1936 Ben-Gurion advocated exclusively Jewish labor in Jewish run enterprises, he said:

"If we want Hebrew redemption 100%, then we must have 100% Hebrew settlement, a 100% Hebrew farm, and 100% Hebrew port." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 24)

Regarding anti-semites, Theodor Herzl explained how they could benefit the Zionist enterprise, he wrote in his diary:

"The antisemites will become our most loyal friends, the antisemite nations will become our allies." (One Palestine Complete, p. 47)


You Can Make Your Own Assumpyions on those

3-As For The reason for the summer war, you say that hezbullah is responsible for kiddnaping those "soldiers" then you compare it to srael kiddnaping civilians, anywayz
i heard a joke a couple days ago that is very relevant to this situation:
a man asked a priest, can i smoke while i pray-the priest said: No you can't, so that guy went to his friend and told him what happened. The friend, replied that the guy didn't know how to ask the question, so he goes to the priest and says: father, can i pray while i smoky, the father replied- yes you can

so you see, the question is not:should've hezbullah kiddnaped the soldiers? the question is, should've israel launched a full scale war for two soldiers, couldn'nt they use diplomacy?
and as for the lebanese prisonners, they were all captured before the year 2000, and israel admited that the presence of their forces in the south before 2000 was an occupation, and the right to resiste of occupation is guaranted in all internaltion treaties


Again, Great Article-i like your blog MFL, can i know where you from, and what paper you read? i'm think Al saffir, or is al akhbar-lol

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Well, I am a marxist dear Darko and welcome to my blog.

Although I think you won't like some articles I did on the SSNP ;) but hey I am a Communist :P

But great respect to your information as well, and I hopefully would like to see you with a blog because you just wrote a whole post. finally someone whose replies are bigger than mine.

By the way, which SSNP trend you are? Abdul Masseeh or The institution? Feel free to email me and thank you for participating in. (as for sources: I recommend: www.zmarg.org, www.marxists.org, and several others. (check the Jewish section in www.marxists.org)

Again darko I recommend to open a blog

Best Regards
MFL

dfasf said...

Both of you are too extremeist in your opinion...I can't change your mind because you beleive to the lies that you hear from age 0...for evey thing you have some conspiretion theory (I don't spell it right I know), and it
waste of time for me, I don't some patriot that need to protect on his country...

but you can't lie to me, you can do that to some europinian person who don't know nothing...I live in this conflict you can't convince me that my state is racist, when it isn't...

I only said that you have option not to fight with israel, but you prefer to fight because Ben Gurion or Herzel, fine...I am glud that you aren't the majority, ...you have too much hate, I am glud that I have no hate to your country and its make me in good position because I don't act from my feeling...

I have nothing to say, I am sorry that you feel what you feel on my people and my country, (yes my country is my people, I have no other country, and I don't need to hear bad stuff on them, I know more than you on our limitation, our bad thing and our good thing, I live here)

but thanks for the conversation, I didn't know how much the hate is deep..but now I know, thanks on that...

Darko said...

The institution is corrupted, i'm with Abdul Masseeh, I saw some of what you had to say about the ssnp, i never noticed that addyar is an SSNP newspaper, i mean charles ayoub is a syrian nationelist, and i do read it, but i only do that, cause my father works there. And as for us being a sect on our own,i think that a bit harsh, i for one am an atheist, and i don't agree with everything Saadeh says, for example, Saadeh said that Communisme if a freemasonry institution for proletariat, and zionisme is the one aimed at the bourgeoisie, i don't agree with that.
Hell, one of the first books i read was the Communist manifesto
as for the blog idea, i thought about it before, but i don't have the time, i just like to surf some of the political blogs, before i go to sleep, and i came across your website a couple weeks ago, and bookmarked it

p.s: It's intersting that dfasf din't bring up the antisemetic argument yey

Darko said...

well, you seem to me, that you don't even know the history of your country, most of the zionime ideology is based on herzel philosophy and ides, so if the main source is a racist, how can his ideology not be racist.
And What about your current PM, olmert, didn't he tell Australian PM a while back, that australia and israel should unite, since they're the only white people in asia, isn't that a racist remarque
you can choose to believe whatever you want. But when someone comes in and kicks you out of your homeland, steals your resources, kills you parents, brothers, friends, believe me, that leavs little place for love, what do you expect, for real, do you think that i'm guna cheer you on, as you do that for me.
And believe it or not, we are the majority, just becouse you see a couple of arab leaders, cheering you on, doesn't mean that their people like you, it just means, that those leaders have a price that have been paid to them to cheer.
And what is that crap about you not having another country, where did your parents come from. if you peace with us, try to find out witch country, and book yourself and ur parents a ticket and come back to where you came from, or just learn how to swim for when the time comes and we throw you into the sea, sorry if you being a jerk, but that's just two cents worth

MarxistFromLebanon said...

No my zionist friend, feel free to chat. For example both parties believe there is a home for ya if you are willing to fight Zionists. Check this link the Middle East section. We are growing down there to emancipate the Prolateriat down there despite religion or race :) . I am sure you would love it... read some of Yossi's Originsof the Jews or Holocaust and Israel.

Darko

I felt you were an Abdul Masseeh faction :D

As for refering to the SSNP as a Sect (specially towards the institution) I always found them imposing themselves and secularism as a Sect while accepting the faults of their allies. Don't get me wrong, I practically lived three years with the Abdul Maseeh faction and always was invited to their circles. I have a good idea ... but don't take it personal friend, it is sadly the reality of the situation imposed on the secular parties, in order to bandwagon with the stronger force rather be in the position of the Commanding Hieghts while demolishing Sectarianism

And on another point:

Open that blasted blog of yours, you already replied 3 posts in one hour man. :)

dfasf said...

Darko,

How can you say that I don't know on my own history, are you know what I know and what I don't? beleive me I know alot of history, I realy love it...I think that you have some filter in your sources that you see only bad things on israel, and ignore from the good things...you see what you want to see...

my P.M didn't tell what you said, it was some ambassador, you can check it if you want...and alot of people criticizeed him.

no I don't exept that you cheer me, I don't need your love...you know why...because last time I checked you are in the weaker position from diplomatic, economic and military issues...

I am proud that our allies are the western world and not iran, china, north Korea or another third world countries with dictatorship that closed the attitude to the internet, I am proud that the democratics and the free countries support us, and consider hezbolla to terrorists, you know why you can't convince me with your lies?
because I see wich countries support israel and wich country support hezbolla, if zionist was a racsit ideology like you say, no free country in the world was support it (look what they did to south africa rgime- they were also white people...) and a lot more people was criticize israel, and you can't say that they are bribed because they do criticize israel when its hurt in cevilians...so why they don't criticize the zionist idiology???? I talk on the majority, even the arabs don't do that...

I see the kings of the free speech, the socialist, from right and left support israel or its a jews plot too? ...From martin Luter King, Ghandi and the list go on and on all of them support us...why? if we are so racist like you said? did we paid them?
and who support you? dictators...sorry but this is the true...

if we were like you said, the U.N- was saying that,
the worst thing that they did is sometime criticize us, but they do it to U.S and Nato, and russia and every country in the world...

I will convince when sane people, people that realy know what they are saying, with objective opinion, that realy see what happend and not read on it in the internet will say that my country is racist (and if I will see it in myself)...only than I will agree with you...right now I think that you realy don't know about what you are talking...and the free, democratic world with us...I beleive them and not to people who deny the holocause for a political purpose like they do in iran...

O.K I said enough...good bye!

Darko said...

Wait, wait, i believe in the holocaust, in fact i believe that it is the most important factor in the creation of israel, after all making people feel guilty is enough to make them, anything for redemption, even if it means taking someone's land and giving it away.

You stated: "I only said that you have option not to fight with israel, but you prefer to fight because Ben Gurion or Herzel, fine..."
that's why i said that you don't know muchof your history
Herzel is founder of the whole ideology, that founded isael, and i showed you quotes, of just how racist he's, and from here it's is a sample mathematical equation

I think that you have some filter in your sources that you see only bad things on israel, and ignore from the good things...


lol, yeah, gogle does that from time to time, where the fuck do you think i come from. KSA. we don't have no filter, but apparantly, you live in a world, where you only see the good thing, and blocks that bad things. and i don't blame you, it survival mecanisme, that your brain uses, cause apparantly the truth doesn't sit well with you.
Can you please tell me what good did we get from israel, unless you think giving the palestinian goverment the money that you stole from them as an aid, something good, or the pullout out of gaze only to surround the place turning it into one big prison is something good, please tell what is the good that you done, cause i want to thank you personnaly for some stuff of my own

Thank you. for expelling all the palestinians out of there land
Thank you. for every palestinian kid you killed
Thank you, for each cluster bomb that explodes every now and then, and kills a kid
thank you for killing 1000 lebanese, so that you don't go to talks with a terroriste group, only to come back after the killing and go back to negotations
Thank you for stealing our water
the list just goes down...

As for the UN well the collection of resolutions criticizing Israel is unmatched by the record of any other nation
http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html

And here's a list of all vetoes that the US used to protect you
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

so just because you have a big friend that protects you, doesn't mean that the world is ok with you

And the question that who in the arab world supports you, from where i'm sitting, i can only see king abdullah and Moubarak in jordan, and of course the dictators of the gulf. I mean of course. These people represent all the democracy that we look for. /*sarcasm/*
These people, have lost touch with there people, they just came to power not elected but chosen by another bunch of scumbags, moslty foreigne scumbags, so believe you me, no body, and i mean no body, here likes you and no body want you, unless you count the little minorties, that israel played part in agitating them against there brothers, like the kurds, the maronite christians in lebanon(not all of them), so please take my advise, come to where you and your family came from of learn how to swim

MFL: i really don't want to get a blog, i have lots on my mind as it is, but i discuss this subject with many of my Lebanese Forces friends, and you won't believe the stupid ideas that they propose. Also, ssnp.blogspot.com is taken by some nursery website. For now i'm guna keep reading your post and commenting on them, cause for some reason the ouwet website keeps blocking my inputs. gtg to schoo

Darko said...

and one more thing, dfasf, i recommend that you read about jimmy carter new book, apparantly he too thinks you're a racist

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Darko, these are two more posts for a blog ;)

I can't comment now, sort of got a paper due

MFL

dfasf said...

I haven't read his book but I understood that he recognize the state of israel, and the zionist idiology...

I think that your extrimist terrorist are racist and scums so it reciprocal, and they killed a lot of innocent people, children
thanks for that like you said...

you can fight israel, you can do what you want
actually, but don't exept that we sit here and thanks you for that...we don't do that anymore...we will not let people to controll us again, we will not let terrorist to dictate us what to do, and if Jimmy Carter say so, I realy don't care...I know that we are not like this, I know that in the past, people didn't want us to live in their countries, and now when we have country they don't want us too...we can't live for their rules, not again...now we have country, we work a lot on it, we fight on it, we build it from fucking desert to a beatifull country and we are not going to give up on it, even if some terrorist want us to leave.

for your questinos what good thing israel has done? what good thing lebanon has done? what good things the palestinians has done to the people around them?...
israel didn't invented the wars, the imperialism, the violence ..
the arabs fight with themself for years, Europ fight eternity wars, conquered states ...we are all murders if you go like this- yes your hezbolla that support in killing innocent people because they are israelis too.
you are "racist" too if you support hezbolla, so don't come here and speech me about justice...your people isn't angels I know it and you know it.

the bottom line is that you can call us how you want, hate us, teach your children that we are pigs and we racist and we know only violence but if you fight with us don't exept that we will sit here and don't do nothing...that it, accept it as fact or keep fighting all of your life for some 100 kilometers land...

for the palestinian I support in giving them their lands back, we tried to give them but they don't know how to make compromise, we wanted to give them 67 borders and they wanted more...
so stop crying and start to act...if you want to change things you have two options..violence and peace...you choosed the violence way...fine...but please don't cry later when you get hurts.
if you choose the way of peace you can see the other israel that you don't know, you could visit and see in yourslef that we are not like you think...and yes we want peace, I want peace all of my family my friend everybody, if it was depending me I will give you all of jerusalem, I don't think that this city worth all those wars...but I know that if we give you some territory you see this like a won, and it make you think that we are weak...like in Gaza and south lebanon (funny, we controled south lebanon for 18 years, and when we left, you said that you won...what did you expect that we will be there forever? LOL...I saw that you are good in saying that you won in wars that you lost, like 73 war...even this last war you said that you...O.K I am not childhood :) )
we want peace but it seems that you want only to send us away, O.K good luck on that...:2

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Dude what are you talking about? Israel has done the most killings towards the Lebanese. Sure, call it self-defence rather being US puppy.

As for the Palestinian issue, how do you expect to give them their lands back with the majority outside Historic Palestine? How do you give them land then send bulldozers to settlements?

We don't trust your peace treaties just as the massacres of Palestinian civilians continue (all in the name of self-defence)We can't have peace with a Zionist government, rather with a secular government. At least the secular government won't be racist to the Non-Jews over there.

Btw Hassan Nasrallah welcomed the Jewish Scholar Noam Chomsky, so again the whole Lebanon got a problem with Zionist Israel, same zionist that expelled Palestinians outside the home. Why do you complain that we want to kick you out, because you already did it in 1924-1948? The Christians, Jews, and Muslims were living in harmony prior the Arrival of Israel... read a bit about that.

MFL

dfasf said...

O.K...again we are going to nowhere...just for your knowledge only today the israeli court of law decide to give money to all the people which their houses destroyed, is this what racist country do?...but I know that keep with your opinion...
you realy have some opinion and no mattet what I said you keep saying the same things...please read again what I had wrote...I don't come here to argue with you on the legitimation of my country, I don't need your confirmation...I said diffrent things...

MarxistFromLebanon said...

I was answering earlier on the why we hate currently the government.

All the houses demolished during the settlement expansions under Sharon's time till current? This would be interesting, can you please supply me with the link? Still doesn't Justify all the killings of non-Jews friend. What about the families of the killed?

By the way I didn't say all Israel are racists, only the bulk, who are the Zionists. For example you got the Kartai, as well as boycotting of the IDF movement. Not to forget the Marxists who call for all Sects to unify against their oppressors for socialist nation. The Yishuv remanants are definitely not Socialists except in organization.

Cheerios
MFL

dfasf said...

Are you agree with me that if zionist are racist, so hezbolla are racist too???
or tha is working only to one side...

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Not really, I see lack of agreement on this one.

Hizbellah is a religious party that has opened up to Christians and other Sects. Take a look at the demonstrations, you would see a girl with a cross carrying Nasrallah's picture.

Zionists regard Jews as a Race, so no matter what, Zionists aim to the Jewish audience only and transformed Judaism from a Religious Sect to a Race (review: Karl Kautsky's Are Jews a Race?)

Best Regards
MFL

dfasf said...

O.K I have tierd from this conversation, I realy don't think that I need to defend on my country, there is enough jews in the word that do that...I don't agree with your logic, realy, you didn't convinced me in anything...every thing sounded me stupid, I don't know...
but I am glud to talk with you anyway, good day.

MarxistFromLebanon said...

Feel free to pass by any time, just please check the references I placed :)